At my company, we generally avoid them unless they have a good proposition. I’ve worked in Sales for 3 years, and have received a few dozen such offers... none of them have been remotely good. :) Common red flags:
1) No budget, or tiny budget (I get the feeling that many of them have no clue what the average salary for IT guys are here in Ukraine)
2) „We’ll pay you in cryptocurrency” (and not always a „mainstream” one like Bitcoin!), or „stock” (акції)
3) Terrible, terrible startup/project ideas
4) Very little sense of professionalism/actual business experience.
I could go on, but I feel like the people in this thread covered all the various reasons pretty thoroughly. :)
Sounds like a great experience! I’ve heard similar impressions from Europeans/Americans about living/working in China. I think your adventure there will prove pretty invaluable in your future career for sure. Shame about the smog though... if I ever end up going over there, I’ll have to find a city that has pretty good air quality, I think. :)
Interesting idea, although I can imagine a few obstacles you’d have to overcome:
* Regarding the transfer of credits — American universities are rather notorious for being very picky about what constitutes a “valid” credit when transferring between *American* universities — I can only imagine the hassle you’d have to go through to get them to accept Ukrainian credits. It’s actually a lot easier to earn a full accredditation (say, a complete Bachelor’s degree) and transfer to a different uni for a Master’s program, than it is to earn individual credits which will be accepted towards a degree.
* Education in the U.S. is a business — make no mistake. The universities will not go out of their way to market/advertise international programs if they are not *at least* as profitable as their domestic programs. So that means American universities would have to charge the same rates for the Ukrainian program as they would for their own program — and you’d have a hard time convincing American students that it’d be worth coming all the way out here, and that the level of education would be equal to/greater than what they’d get back home. You’d need some killer marketing to overcome this sort of “discrimination” against non-American education programs.
* Again, on the subject of marketing — Americans in general have a dim view of educational programs outside of the U.S. — American universities have done a great job convincing the world that they’re the best, including convincing other Americans. :) Convincing Americans to come to Ukraine would be an even harder sell. Most Americans know of Ukraine as being a poor, former Soviet bloc country which is currently at war — not exactly the sort of selling point most students (or their parents who may be paying for the education!) want to hear.
I think the strongest selling point would be to combine the educational programs with some sort of practical exercise/internships in actual companies — most development firms here in Ukraine would greatly benefit to have some native English speakers embedded in their teams, and American students would be keen to get some actual work experience — *paid* work experience, which coming from America (land of the unpaid internships), might actually be a compelling offer.
Забавная история — *Я* не написал ту статью — это было собеседование с журналистом (я думаю из DOU? Это было как раз до моего выступления в Kyiv Outsourcing Forum 2018), который перевел мои ответы, и написал все вместо меня.
Если честно, я не понял что они собирались постить ту статью под моим именим, будто я все написал в совершенным русском. Сейчас я чуть-чуть переживаю, что у людей есть выше ожидании моего знания русского, но на самом деле я еще делаю много ошибок (особенно когда я говорю).
Ну что делать — «ущерб уже сделано,» как мы говорим. )
Hey Dima, funny seeing you here :)
I honestly don’t mind when people ask me... I mean, come on, I’d be stupid if I didn’t expect that question from people. It’s when people start to argue with me about it — that’s when it starts getting a bit silly!
For anyone else reading — the short-version of why I really came to Ukraine was that I studied Russian in university, I got a degree that said I was „an expert in Russian language” but could barely say „Лондон — столица великобритании” without screwing it up. So I decided to come to Ukraine (because the visa was waaay easier than a Russian one would be for me) and live in Odessa to get my Russian up to speed... the rest is history. :)
Hey, I admit I don’t speak the Queen’s English, but неродном? That hurts my feelings. :)
I know, I know... actually, I was quite impressed with the transport over in Prague... ideal balance of efficiency and cost, I’d say. But from what I heard, Japan is at the top.
Basically what Gennadiy said. :)
“Your Money or Your Life” straight up changed my life. I’d also recommend “Early Retirement Extreme” (not as a guide, but just as an example of one way you *could* do FI/RE if you want).
Some not mentioned there:
* “The Richest Man in Babylon” (M.A. Haley) (a sort of fictional/historical/Aesop’s Tales way of presenting basic financial philosophy to people.
* “Rich Dad, Poor Dad”**** (Robert Kiyosaki) (CAVEAT: The first half the book is good, but bear in mind that this is not a gospel and that the real estate investment portion has some questionable advice, but the whole aspect of “what is an asset and what is a liability” is worth learning).
* “The Simple Path to Wealth” (JL Collins) — A straightforward book explaining the advantages of index funds. Oriented towards Americans but I believe the same approach could be applied to Forex and would be more accessible to Ukrainians.
* “The Millionaire Next Door” (Thomas Stanley) — Not necessarily about investment, but talks about profiles of American millionaires and how the image we all have of them is actually far from the truth. Good book to consider regarding lifestyle creep, imo.
And the link to that subreddit that Gennadiy posted is also quite useful — the community is generally quite helpful there and you can put forth your specific financial situation and get fairly sound advice.
Oh, one of my favorite topics!
I’m a big proponent of FI/RE (and really any of its particular versions — FatFIRE, LeanFIRE, BaristaFIRE or whatever you want to call it). The general idea of being financially independent is something that should be encouraged and supported in society, although I often wonder if it’s practical to have a whole country of people that are able to achieve this... but that’s the subject of another debate, I guess :)
Anyway, FI/RE — good stuff. I always cite this great clip (from a terrible movie, but alas) when it comes to the sort of attitude I encourage towards financial stability: www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdfeXqHFmPI
I think Ukrainian software engineers, at this point in history, are in a unique position of being able to achieve a desirable form of FI/RE, due to the obvious ratio of cost of living and earning potential. The biggest issues I see right now are 1) people’s rapidly growing “lifestyle creep” (as some other commenters mentioned) and 2) stable, relatively “safe” investment vehicles to store your money.
On lifestyle creep: This is an interesting problem, and I think stems greatly from growing up at a time when you remember having *nothing* and suddenly you have a chance to have (almost) *everything* and you’re not quite sure how to cope with it. I see people spending crazy money on cars, vacations, etc., and then remind myself that up until like 10 years ago, all these things were a real luxury and most people had no opportunity to splurge on such things (most people still don’t, this is just something we can afford ourselves as IT people).
My dad, who’s 88(!) years old, would tell me stories of growing up on the tail end of the Great Depression in the U.S., which sounds (to me) like a similarly painful time in American history as the 90’s were here in Ukraine. He also tells me how amazing the post-war period was, and how it felt like the country went from “rags to riches” in the span of
People sort of lost themselves in the ability to suddenly afford stuff that was out of their reach most of their lives. It became “normal” to own a car, have a big house with a huge yard, with the dad working a single job (which he got fairly easily and maybe without a college education), and the mom could stay at home with the
I think, at least for IT guys, we’re in a similar situation as the post-war period in the U.S.. For now, if you get into the sphere and manage to prove yourself a capable developer, job offers come flying at you and you can easily earn 10x the average monthly salary of the country in a matter of a few years. And looking across to Europe/NA, seeing how people live — well, naturally you want to match that! But it all comes with a price, and I’m sure in my lifetime if things continue the way they are, the massive imbalance of IT salaries vs. salaries for everyone else will balance out, and it’ll be at least a bit harder to achieve FI/RE for IT guys here in Ukraine... which brings me to point #2:
Investment vehicles: Right now, the most commonly accepted method of storing large sums of cash in Ukraine is real estate. This is a tricky endeavor though, and real estate doesn’t automatically bring you the passive income necessary to “retire”, let alone to retire early. There is a lot that could be said about the dangers of investing solely real estate, but this post is already too stupidly big, so let me just say this: I encourage all Ukrainians with a substantial amount of money sitting somewhere to learn about different investment vehicles (Forex, index funds, bonds, etc.) and avoid quick-rich schemes (cryptocurrency, dumping all your money into CD’s in hryvnias). The time and effort you put into that now will pay off dividends (no pun intended) in the years to come. Trust me. Source: I’m speaking from experience.
Anyhow, if anyone wants book/blog recommendations for FI/RE, I’d be happy to throw them out here. :)
Якщо чесно, я не знаю як це називається українською, але моє прізвище — француське (пре-пре-пре-дідусь народився в франції )), і це буква — é називається L’Accent Aigu (en.wiktionary.org/wiki/).
Короче, прізвище звучить ось так — «робей» (як café, resumé). Без апострофа, американци кажуть його як «роб» (халат).
А чому е’ і не é? Я просто занадто лінивий вчити код ASCII для цієї букви )))))
Жена не помогла, она бы сошла сума если я просил ее помощь каждый раз я хотел постить что-то на украинском/русском )))
Я признаюсь — я всегда проверяю правописание на google translate. Но я не доверяю гуглу насчет граматики )
Ну, я вивчав російську мову роки
Я ще роблю багато помилок (звісно), але я можу більш менш спількуватися з людми, коли вони мають терпіння )
Трамваии не бывают в каждом городе. Даже не в половине городов. Раньше были гораздо больше, конечно, а сейчас... ну, смотрите — en.wikipedia.org/...tems_in_the_United_States
Хотя я согласен, что есть такое движение в направление урбанизации. Но все-таки тяжело, потому что сам дизайн большенства городов в америке лучше подходит машинам, и не гражданскому транспорту.
Кстати, в своем городе Сиэтла, у нас одная линия метро, которая идет с аэропорта до центра города. Ехать с одной стороны до конца — 40 минут. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
(на смак фломастери різні)?
Ну щось таке, так. )
Хотів сказати, що дуже багато залежіть від свого виховання і цінностей, що вам важніше, і що вам пофиг.
Наприклад — я виріс у США, мав машину коли мені було 18 років(!!!). Моя сім’я не була багата (у порівнянні з іншими сім’ями в моєму місті) — просто було необхідно мати машину, щоб їздити на роботу кожен день. В нас не було громадского транспорту —взагалі—, і робота (навіть нормальний продуктовий магазин!) були кілометрів
Напевно, для багатьох українців, мати машину коли вам всього 18 років — це круто. Але я тільки пам’ятаю, скільки часу я витратив на дорогах (і в пробках), і гроші на бензін, страховий полис, ремонт... це постійний страх, що якщо машина зламається, немає жодного способу дістатися на роботу...
Переїхав в Єврову (раніше жив в Празі, потім попав сюди в Україну), і почав розуміти як мені зовсім зручніше було жити де є громадский транспорт, або можна просто пішки ходити куди треба. Так, я розумію що маршрутки — це жесть, але все таки мати хочь якийсь варіант транспорту краше ніж взагалі не мати.
АЛЕ,
Я не осуджую(?) українців, які мріють про покупку свої машини. Ті, які купляють, і потім скаржуються про стань доріг — я їх теж зовсім розумію. Для них, машина і добрі дороги — це прілість, яка дає їм можливість мобільности, яка вони (і напевно їх батькі) ніколи не було.
А мені краще жити в тісному Львові, де можна практично куди завгодно ходити пішки, тому що за перші 25 років свього життя ніколи не було такої можливості ))))
Короче, я сподіваюсь, що це вийшло нормально на мій поганій українській ) Вибачаюсь за помилки, Юкрейніан iз нот май фурст лангуадж, і т.д. )))
The oldest (four and half) speaks broken English with me, broken Russian with mom, and broken Ukrainian at preschool. It’s a bit of a mess, but I imagine she’ll get it sorted out sooner or later. :)
I know, right? I keep seeing the FB ads offering 100k remote jobs but nobody seems to be sending me any concrete proposals ;)
I’m late to the party, but...
I think finding one’s “ideal” place to live is such a personal matter that it’s really hard to break it down into a general “pros” and “cons” list that can apply to most people. Sure, you can look at numbers and see where people are leaving/going, and you can list some obvious advantages/disadvantages of a place, but ultimately — it’s something you need to experience for yourself in order to decide. And even then, people change their minds all the time.
To play off the great reply someone made here about working in Amazon/Seattle — I myself am from Seattle, used to have a 100k+ a year job with great benefits, then left it all to come to Ukraine. Been living here for 6+ years now, not planning on leaving anytime soon, and I certainly don’t make anywhere close to 100k these days. :)
By far the most popular question I get from new acquaintances is, “why are you here?” always asked with shock and often with a bit of audacity, like, “are you stupid or something?!” I’m not sure how to answer them. I have my reasons, but I know *my* reasons might not be the same as *theirs,* and even if they’ve had the experience of living abroad, they may never see why I value certain things that they take for granted... just as I can’t really appreciate stuff that they’d get in America which I grew up with all my life and thought of as being pretty “meh.” That’s just... people’s tastes and upbringing. No reasoning is going to change that.
Anyhow — I’ve got a wife and 2 kids here in Ukraine, and I go back to the U.S. (to a couple different cities) every year to see family. After two-three weeks there, my wife and I are ready to come home to Lviv. My kids are young but I wouldn’t be surprised when they hit their teens/20’s that they’ll want to spend an extended period of time in America, and will think we’re crazy that we prefer Ukraine.
I won’t blame them for that.
Interesting — what about the companies that are willing to hire you without the relocation portion? I notice that there’s been a big uptick in foreigners coming to Lviv looking to hire directly for their projects, I imagine its becoming more commonplace now.
Care to elaborate? Anything “uniquely” different about working for a product company? I get the impression its sort of a rare job to secure here in Ukraine, but people tend to prefer it over outsourcing. Maybe I’m wrong on that though.
Ну, я умею читать по-русски. Даже умею писать, когда необходимо )